Aargh! Blogz! | Dr. Roberto Le Camembert's Blog
Suffer for your art
Posted by Bobthecheese on Nov. 14 2006, edited by Trammapoline on Nov. 22 2006, (popular)
I'm about to start suffering for my art. It is time. It must be done.
It is time. I'm going to let go of my pre-formed prejudices. I'll stop mouthing off to avoid hearing that which I don't want to.I'm going to listen to pop music. I've realised that there's things that I need to know. One of those things is what makes a song popular. What makes people like it? Beyond the payola (sorry. Old prejudice dies hard), what gets a song played?
I need to learn about hooks. I don't want to, but I need to. You must understand that this is for my own art. I need to learn how to write songs which are catchy. I won't abuse the powers, however. At the very least, I don't plan to do so. Overloading a song with hooks can be disasterous, and I just want to be able to write good or memorable songs, rather than just hoping that a song is that way.
My own music collection means alot to me. There is alot of stuff there that I don't particularly listen to, and some stuff that I really dislike. It's there, however, because it came with something that I don't detest. It also keeps a nice dynamic. The music that I do like, however, really does reach out to me. It usually gives me that little shiver along the spine. Not always, as it depends heavily on my mood, but when it's there, there is no other sound I would rather hear, no other feeling I would rather feel, etc. etc. and so forth.
The problem (and the wonder) with my music collection, however, is that it is almost completely devoid of 'pop' songs. A couple have creeped in through this, that, or the other, but for the most part is clean. There are maybe 100 songs of approximately 6000 that I wouldn't normally listen to. I think that that's a pretty good ratio.
So I'm asking for your help here. I need a list of pop songs to listen to, and to study. There are a couple of provisons.
- Songs from the 90s only. I've never been impressed with pop-songs from before the 90s, and I don't feel that anything has had a decent hook since about the year 2000 (give or take a year or two).
- No rap/hip hop. I've never been impressed with this, and their hooks just aren't the type of ones I'm looking for. I'm not about to call it talentless crap, as I'm in a punk band, and can totally see the irony of my doing so. I'll just say that I don't particularly like it, and most of it repulses me. I find it to be faux-violent immature crap, but that's just me.
- Give me actual song names. I don't want to be aquiring entire Back-street boys albums if there are only one or two songs with decent hooks. Also, don't be afraid to admit to knowing a song name. Knowing the name doen't mean you like it. Your indie cred is safe.
Anyway, if you would like to leave a suggestion for me, you can either leave me a comment below, hit me up in Artsy Sufferage on the Forum, or email me (bobthecheese AT bobthecheese DOT com).
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2- Nemo 
on Nov. 14 2006 - Reply · Quote
Sounds like you need to read The Manual.
aka."How to Have a Number One the Easy Way"
Info about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manual
aka."How to Have a Number One the Easy Way"
Info about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manual
3- Bobthecheese 
on Nov. 14 2006 - Reply · Quote
I know, I know. The 90s WAS particularly horrible, but then looking at some of the mosic produced in the 80s makes my brain melt.
Yes, there was alot of great music in the 80s, and earlier, too, but it probably doesn't quite fit the bill of what I want. I'm looking for the type of songs that get thrashed on your local commercial radio stations, as opposed to Triple J.
The 90s just had alot of ready-made boy/girl-band pop songs that were so full of hooks that they taste like tuna.
Yes, there was alot of great music in the 80s, and earlier, too, but it probably doesn't quite fit the bill of what I want. I'm looking for the type of songs that get thrashed on your local commercial radio stations, as opposed to Triple J.
The 90s just had alot of ready-made boy/girl-band pop songs that were so full of hooks that they taste like tuna.
4- Bobthecheese on Nov. 14 2006 - Reply · Quote
" Sounds like you need to read The Manual." title="Browse in a new window" class="external" onclick="window.open(this.href); return false;" onkeypress="window.open(this.href); return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manual[/quote]
aka."How to Have a Number One the Easy Way"
Info about it here: "
Interesting, interesting... I must look into that...
5- Ickis on Nov. 15 2006 - Reply · Quote
Ok, I'll bite.
This is probably stuff more on the alternative side of pop, but the 90s was when I learnt there was such a thing, so you'll have to deal with that.
First can I say that I hung out with a bunch of people who worshipped New Kids on the Block. I hated NKOTB. I will not recommend any of their songs to you.
Ok, so... I think that these songs were kinda mainstreamish, but admittedly I have no idea. They're on compilations I have and they are good so...
Not If You Were The Last Junkie On Earth - Dandy Warhols. I've always thought the Dandys have nicely painful catches, they embed themselves into your brain. See also Everyday Should be a Holiday and We Used to be Friends.
Santa Monica - Everclear. This song was very popular with the pub scene. And while we're talking pub scene - Mr Jones by the Counting Crows and Celebrity Skin by Hole. They went off, and people commented on them. Why? Well... primarily cause I rock.
But especially Celebrity Skin just starts rocking and continues to do so. (And also cause I rock.)
What's that Third Eye Blind song? Erm - Semi Charmed Life. That one too.
Do you like my formatting? Makes it less boring don't you think?
Catatonia's Road Rage got people going. I think it was just Cerys' voice. (I can't remember if that's her name... but the voice was the issue anyway).
Oh - and though it's not pop (just cause its name is sitting in front of me) - you have to listen to Hell by the Squirrel Nut Zippers. It's an awesome song.
What about Supermodel by Jill Sobule. That's one of those catchy ones. I used to do the 'I didn't eat yesterday, and I'm not going to eat today, and I'm not going to eat tomorrow - cause I wanna be a supermodel!'
So I'll stop now and wait for you to tell me they're not poppy enough and what you want is something more mainstream teenybopper.
Enjoy.
PS - I might be a little biased... but I think a good song is all about the lyrics.
This is probably stuff more on the alternative side of pop, but the 90s was when I learnt there was such a thing, so you'll have to deal with that.
First can I say that I hung out with a bunch of people who worshipped New Kids on the Block. I hated NKOTB. I will not recommend any of their songs to you.
Ok, so... I think that these songs were kinda mainstreamish, but admittedly I have no idea. They're on compilations I have and they are good so...
Not If You Were The Last Junkie On Earth - Dandy Warhols. I've always thought the Dandys have nicely painful catches, they embed themselves into your brain. See also Everyday Should be a Holiday and We Used to be Friends.
Santa Monica - Everclear. This song was very popular with the pub scene. And while we're talking pub scene - Mr Jones by the Counting Crows and Celebrity Skin by Hole. They went off, and people commented on them. Why? Well... primarily cause I rock.
But especially Celebrity Skin just starts rocking and continues to do so. (And also cause I rock.)What's that Third Eye Blind song? Erm - Semi Charmed Life. That one too.
Do you like my formatting? Makes it less boring don't you think?
Catatonia's Road Rage got people going. I think it was just Cerys' voice. (I can't remember if that's her name... but the voice was the issue anyway).
Oh - and though it's not pop (just cause its name is sitting in front of me) - you have to listen to Hell by the Squirrel Nut Zippers. It's an awesome song.
What about Supermodel by Jill Sobule. That's one of those catchy ones. I used to do the 'I didn't eat yesterday, and I'm not going to eat today, and I'm not going to eat tomorrow - cause I wanna be a supermodel!'
So I'll stop now and wait for you to tell me they're not poppy enough and what you want is something more mainstream teenybopper.
Enjoy.
PS - I might be a little biased... but I think a good song is all about the lyrics.
6- Ickis on Nov. 15 2006 - Reply · Quote
Oh oh oh!!
Ratcat - Don't Go Now. Damn, I want to listen to that now.
And while we're at it, Unbelieveable by EMF. (That one I have on here somewhere, so I can listen to that one).
Ratcat - Don't Go Now. Damn, I want to listen to that now.
And while we're at it, Unbelieveable by EMF. (That one I have on here somewhere, so I can listen to that one).
7- Trammapoline on Nov. 21 2006 - Reply · Quote
From my time in the Deep South, mid-90s, I recall mostly hearing:
Teenage Loser Anthem by The Dam Builders (I still dig that guitar riff)
1979 by Smashing Pumpkins (I didn't really dig it, but it was popular); also Tonight Tonight & Bullet with Butterfly Wings (which still rocks). Siamese Dream was from the 90s too: Disarm, Today, etc.
Underground (I still dig this too) & Brick by Ben Folds Five (also One Angry Dwarf & that break-up song)
You Sound Like Luis Burdett by The Whitlams (& No Aphrodisiac, but Luis is an awesomely bouncy song); also on them, was I Make Hamburgers a 90's song? I like that
Hey Hey Hey Hey by Snout (also Cro Magnon Man)
I saw Snout supported by Preshrunk, who also got a bit of airplay with Road Rager, & earlier, Relaxation (may not have been called that)
Catatonia had a slightly smaller hit before Road Rage with Mulder & Scully, which was also pretty hooky.
Portishead & Massive Attack: cool for me, but less so if you don't like chillin'-type musics. Teardrop (MA) was large, as was Nobody Knows (PH).
Was The Cruel Sea's The Honeymoon is Over, Delivery Man & Black Stick? They were big & cool, & more followed.
Also, Taxi's Teenage Junk Queen topped ZZZ's list for the year it came out, but it was nowhere near commercial radio! I just mentioned it because they were awesome & also happen to have cool friends (Not to be confused with Taxiride, who had a big commercial hit with Get Set, but were rubbish)
David Bowie had some strong contributions at times in the 90s, although purests still insist he didn't do anything decent after Low. I disagree. He's a great chameleon. Earthling is an awesome, rocking album. Little Wonder was, I think, the single (it's the only one I remember hearing on radio, anyway). On the previous album, 1. Outside, The Heart's Filthy Lesson did OK.
I'll be back with more, but probably in a month or so... I can tell you things about the more commercial end that were still OK.
Teenage Loser Anthem by The Dam Builders (I still dig that guitar riff)
1979 by Smashing Pumpkins (I didn't really dig it, but it was popular); also Tonight Tonight & Bullet with Butterfly Wings (which still rocks). Siamese Dream was from the 90s too: Disarm, Today, etc.
Underground (I still dig this too) & Brick by Ben Folds Five (also One Angry Dwarf & that break-up song)
You Sound Like Luis Burdett by The Whitlams (& No Aphrodisiac, but Luis is an awesomely bouncy song); also on them, was I Make Hamburgers a 90's song? I like that
Hey Hey Hey Hey by Snout (also Cro Magnon Man)
I saw Snout supported by Preshrunk, who also got a bit of airplay with Road Rager, & earlier, Relaxation (may not have been called that)
Catatonia had a slightly smaller hit before Road Rage with Mulder & Scully, which was also pretty hooky.
Portishead & Massive Attack: cool for me, but less so if you don't like chillin'-type musics. Teardrop (MA) was large, as was Nobody Knows (PH).
Was The Cruel Sea's The Honeymoon is Over, Delivery Man & Black Stick? They were big & cool, & more followed.
Also, Taxi's Teenage Junk Queen topped ZZZ's list for the year it came out, but it was nowhere near commercial radio! I just mentioned it because they were awesome & also happen to have cool friends
(Not to be confused with Taxiride, who had a big commercial hit with Get Set, but were rubbish)David Bowie had some strong contributions at times in the 90s, although purests still insist he didn't do anything decent after Low. I disagree. He's a great chameleon. Earthling is an awesome, rocking album. Little Wonder was, I think, the single (it's the only one I remember hearing on radio, anyway). On the previous album, 1. Outside, The Heart's Filthy Lesson did OK.
I'll be back with more, but probably in a month or so... I can tell you things about the more commercial end that were still OK.
8- Trammapoline on Nov. 21 2006 - Reply · Quote
Oh, and I cannot fail to mention Augie March, who just scraped in to the 90's with their marvellously beautiful Asleep In Perfection.
And let us not forget King Of Pop, Dave Graney! Rock & Roll Is Where I Hide was large. Feelin' Kinda Sporty, You're Just Too Hip, Baby, Rackin' Up Some Zeds, The Stars, Baby, The Stars, & I'm Gonna Release Your Soul (& others, probably) also got quite a bit of airplay, but only on the indie stations.
Elliott Smith: Waltz No. 2 & Baby Britain. Gorgeous musics, and hooky, and quite (rightly) popular.
And if we're talking gorgeous musics, we cannot omit Jeff Buckley! Grace: look no further, but no, do: look at the whole album. Last Goodbye & So Real were also big. Then, posthumously, Vancouver, Witches' Rave, Nightmares by the Sea & Everybody Here Wants You. Seriously. Do yourself a favour.
Frente came back briefly (without the exclamation mark) with Sit on My Hands and Goodbye Good Guy.
Red Hot Chilli Peppers: Under The Bridge & a bunch of others, but not sure when each album/song came out. The were consistently popular, though, & they do hook. Rage Against the Machine hook, too. But maybe that comes too close to hip-hop for you, Bob.
Radiohead! Paranoid Android, No Surprises, Karma Police, and earlier, Creep. Much airplay. Also awesome.
Placebo: Every You, Every Me, You Don't Care About Us, Pure Morning (although the letter was hooky as hell, I didn't like it); eveything else is way cool, though.
Eels!: Beautiful Freak appeared in 1996, I think, delighting the ticklish airwaves with Novacain for the Soul and Susan's House. But perhaps they didn't get much commercial air until Mr E's Beautiful Blues?
Showing my deep uncoolness now, I also raise the spectre of Genesis. They managed to impress at least one friend of mine who is pretty much with the non-mainstream with I Can't Dance & Jesus He Knows Me. For mine, that album was OK, but still doesn't come up to the standard they had from 1970-77.
Speaking of vintage bands, Pink Floyd released The Division Bell during that decade, too, but without a lot of impact, as far as I know. Keep Talking got a little bit of airplay, but wasn't really a high-impact song.
Back to more modern things: Björk, Nirvana, Crowded House (& Neil Finn solo), Tori Amos, Pearl Jam (pub rock staple), Nick Cave (incl. with that Minogue chick), Silverchair, Prince (when he was a symbol), Live (Lightning Crashes), The Tea Party (Temptation & Gyroscope), Alanis Morrisette, U2 (Achtung Baby & Zooropa albums made them more electricky) & wasn't Nine Inch Nails' Closer a 90's song? Blah blah de blah. There's heaps of stuff that was popular, & it wasn't even all bad!
And let us not forget King Of Pop, Dave Graney! Rock & Roll Is Where I Hide was large. Feelin' Kinda Sporty, You're Just Too Hip, Baby, Rackin' Up Some Zeds, The Stars, Baby, The Stars, & I'm Gonna Release Your Soul (& others, probably) also got quite a bit of airplay, but only on the indie stations.
Elliott Smith: Waltz No. 2 & Baby Britain. Gorgeous musics, and hooky, and quite (rightly) popular.
And if we're talking gorgeous musics, we cannot omit Jeff Buckley! Grace: look no further, but no, do: look at the whole album. Last Goodbye & So Real were also big. Then, posthumously, Vancouver, Witches' Rave, Nightmares by the Sea & Everybody Here Wants You. Seriously. Do yourself a favour.
Frente came back briefly (without the exclamation mark) with Sit on My Hands and Goodbye Good Guy.
Red Hot Chilli Peppers: Under The Bridge & a bunch of others, but not sure when each album/song came out. The were consistently popular, though, & they do hook. Rage Against the Machine hook, too. But maybe that comes too close to hip-hop for you, Bob.
Radiohead! Paranoid Android, No Surprises, Karma Police, and earlier, Creep. Much airplay. Also awesome.
Placebo: Every You, Every Me, You Don't Care About Us, Pure Morning (although the letter was hooky as hell, I didn't like it); eveything else is way cool, though.
Eels!: Beautiful Freak appeared in 1996, I think, delighting the ticklish airwaves with Novacain for the Soul and Susan's House. But perhaps they didn't get much commercial air until Mr E's Beautiful Blues?
Showing my deep uncoolness now, I also raise the spectre of Genesis. They managed to impress at least one friend of mine who is pretty much with the non-mainstream with I Can't Dance & Jesus He Knows Me. For mine, that album was OK, but still doesn't come up to the standard they had from 1970-77.
Speaking of vintage bands, Pink Floyd released The Division Bell during that decade, too, but without a lot of impact, as far as I know. Keep Talking got a little bit of airplay, but wasn't really a high-impact song.
Back to more modern things: Björk, Nirvana, Crowded House (& Neil Finn solo), Tori Amos, Pearl Jam (pub rock staple), Nick Cave (incl. with that Minogue chick), Silverchair, Prince (when he was a symbol), Live (Lightning Crashes), The Tea Party (Temptation & Gyroscope), Alanis Morrisette, U2 (Achtung Baby & Zooropa albums made them more electricky) & wasn't Nine Inch Nails' Closer a 90's song? Blah blah de blah. There's heaps of stuff that was popular, & it wasn't even all bad!
9- Trammapoline on Nov. 21 2006 - Reply · Quote
(OK, so that was less than a month. I'm going to be quiet now.)
10- Trammapoline on Nov. 22 2006 - Reply · Quote
OK, so I WAS going to be quiet now, but I realised on the way home last night that I was probably wide of the mark you were aiming for. I made a list of nasty commercial things I remember hearing & will post them later.
But there's a point to bear in mind, methinks. One is that marketing gets a song played. If you want to look at airplay coupled with intrinsic merits of the song, you need to look at air-play some years down the track. If a song that got flogged to death in 1995 is still being played (as a classic!) today, chances are it had more than just a strong marketing machine behind it. So if you want to know what makes a "good" pop song, you could listen to one of the nasty radio stations for a while & pick out what songs they play from your decade of interest.
Here ends my uninformed sagety.
But there's a point to bear in mind, methinks. One is that marketing gets a song played. If you want to look at airplay coupled with intrinsic merits of the song, you need to look at air-play some years down the track. If a song that got flogged to death in 1995 is still being played (as a classic!) today, chances are it had more than just a strong marketing machine behind it. So if you want to know what makes a "good" pop song, you could listen to one of the nasty radio stations for a while & pick out what songs they play from your decade of interest.
Here ends my uninformed sagety.
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- bobthecheese
Dr. Roberto Le Camembert. Better than a triple bypass performed by a monkey with parkinsons and a below-average monkey IQ. Guaranteed!
bobthecheese
from I am from the world. I have no set location, and no real destination. That, and I rhyme horribly.
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1- Ickis
on Nov. 14 2006 - Reply · Quote
I really think you are showing how lacking your education is already.
But, that said, the ability to suffer for art is a good one. I hate pop usually, but I've written some stuff which does lend itself to pop... can equally be alternative though, so it's pretty safe.
If I think of anything specfic I will email you, but I'm still trying to get over the 90s only thing...